SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hi Meredith. Hi, Kimberly. Welcome back to another episode of Mildly Thriving. I'm Kimberly. Oh yeah, I'm Meredith. What day is it? Okay. Just kidding. I'm I'm actually not very caffeinated and unmedicated today. So okay, great. Ready for me. Great. Lucky me. I did want to mention that we have multiple vine references in our last episode. Like we were on fire with the amount of times that we mentioned vine references. Really? Yeah. First person who can name all of them, I'm gonna give them $20. So I'm gonna go back through all that episode and find all of the references. I love this. What's better than a vine scavenger hunt? I don't know. Does it look like my head and my neck are this just like well it does now? No. I wonder if we should upload these videos to Spotify. Like, do people actually want to watch podcasts on Spotify? I have before. Oh, you have? I like I like the visual representation, but that's well, it depends on where I'm at. Like, I can't do that in the car, obviously. So when I'm listening to like Mr. Ballin, I just have the audio. But yeah. Sometimes I like having the visual whatever. Never mind, I'm done talking about it. The visual. Is that like mantra? Yeah. I'm not gonna let that die. Evidently. Um, okay, here I'm gonna pull up my notes. We have notes. I have notes. I love I just realized I love the difference between episodes where we've clearly just talked to one another so we don't have a lot of catch up, and then the ones where we haven't seen each other in so long, where it's like, oh my god, tell me about your life. Tell me about almost shitting your pants on an airplane, tell me about this. Yeah, that's actually really funny. No news stories because. I do have a story from yesterday. I was listening back to our episode and our last episode, and you took out my rant about uh Hollywood not making movies, and I was like, that bitch. And here's the thing when the episode's a an hour and eight minutes, some cuts had to be made. And we went on a big long tangent about popcorn, and I was like, you know, maybe the viewers don't need don't need this. But if you if there was anything from the Hollywood rant that you would like to bring back now, now's your opportunity. No, I don't. I did it did like bring back memories though from music. Like I was like, why didn't I mention the fact that my dad and I used to listen to the Rolling Stones? And then a couple years ago, I took them to the Rolling Stones. I bought tickets and surprisingly. I remember that. And it was on their anniversary. Isn't that so cute? That is so cute. Yeah. I got uh I got to see James Taylor with my mom a few years ago, and that was like a full circle moment. She used to sing it to me when I was a baby, and then we got to see them together. That was really cool. Yeah. I am very bitter though, because um we listened to a lot of Jimmy Buffett, and a few years, I don't know, probably 10 years ago, my brother bought tickets to go see Jimmy Buffett, and he took my parents, but he didn't like offer me a ticket or that bitch. Yeah. And so um I didn't get to see Jimmy Buffett, and I was quite upset about it. And then he died. So fine, yeah, so finally, so finally I was gonna solve this problem. And I called my mom and I was like, Hey, will you go to Vegas with me and go see Jimmy Buffett? He's gonna be there. And she's like, Oh, yeah, okay. So my mom and I book tickets, we book a show, we book our hotel, all this stuff. He cancels. And then a few months later he died. Oh my god. Not where I thought that story was going, actually. Uh yeah, no. All right, Sean, do better for the future. Uh, I'll never forgive him for that. And and my dad still brings it up and he likes to rub it in my face. He's like, Well, I was Jimmy Buffett. And I'm like, Oh, okay, well, you're a dick. Yeah, well, fuck you back. Yeah. Um, do you have anything that you need to you want to talk about? I was just gonna tell a dog poop story, but it seems uh it seems very unfun now. Oh, okay. Okay, so do you know, do you know what we're talking about today? You know that I don't know what we're talking about today. Remember, I asked yesterday and you were like, no, I'm not telling you. I'm so mysterious. Oh my god. Uh today we're gonna talk about tipping. Oh, okay. Not cow tipping, Meredith. Not cow tipping. Which I know exactly what you meant. I know you're from Texas, and you know, I don't, I don't know. Okay, so I wanted to talk about this because after my last cruise. Oh, this is so fresh in my mind. I'm ready. I'm ready. So part of like virgin voyages is like virgin voyages is on my headphones. Part of Virgin's like spiel was that they were different than other cruise lines. And part of it was that you pay a flat rate, and that's all you have to pay. So the first cruise we went on, you weren't supposed to tip. They're not different than other cruise lines. Other cruise lines do that. Every cruise I've gone on, I've paid for gratuities ahead of time. No, you didn't pay, you didn't, like it wasn't a line item, it wasn't anything. Like it was, it was all included. Oh and so then between the time that I went on the first cruise in 2023 and I went on the second one in 2026, they um stopped doing that and they split out the gratuities. Like if you pay them ahead of time, you get a discount. Okay. I I figured like I'm just gonna pay them ahead of time because I don't want to like deal with anything afterwards. I want to be like, well, everything's paid for. Um and then it kind of annoyed me because I'm like, well, if this is required, then it's not a gratuity, because literally the Marion Webster definition of a gratuity is something given voluntarily or beyond obligation, usually in return for a service, specifically a tip. It is defined as a free gift donation or money given in acknowledgement of a favor. But like if you're adding it on as a line item, then it's required. Then it's required. Apparently, you can go to like customer service and like get it removed and whatever. Um But who's gonna do that? That's why they make it like that. Right. I'm on my vacation. I don't want to go stand in line at customer service to to do this. And plus, I I want people to get compensated, right? I saw somebody on Instagram and he was talking about how he asked people who worked on cruise lines to tell them what they did, how much they made, and whether their pay actually fluctuated based on, I don't know, capacity, gratuities, et cetera. And I watched a couple of his videos and it was kind of unanimously that people only made different amounts if cash was left for them. And they already get paid peanuts. I know they do. Yeah, they don't. I don't get paid nothing. Yeah. And yeah, that so I have always been curious about that because um Boat Guy and I included gratuities, and I have every time in our package, but then like we'll tip a little bit extra like on because they still give you uh a receipt every time you order something, even if you paid for gratuities ahead of time. You have to sign that you you paid for that thing, and there's a tip line on there. And so we'll do like a dollar a drink. Because, you know, I know it sucks, and I know these people are working hard, and 99.9% of the time they're over the top nice to us. Um, but it has made me think, and with talking to other people who have gone on multiple cruises, given the option, I don't know that I will buy that in the future. Like I think I will just not pay for gratuity ahead of time and just pay it while I'm there because then I get to decide how much it is, and then I know it's actually going to the person that it needs to go to. Right. Um, I think that kind of cruise lines or places like this um make the argument, well, there's you know, you have all of these interactions with people who are serving you, and you know, so it goes to to everyone that you know So what is my cruise what is the cost of my cruise pay for? Exactly. Exactly. No, it's okay, yeah. I totally, I totally agree. Um and so not only that, but like tipping kind of feels weird, like and it's especially gotten out of hand where every place that you go, you're like, I literally just asked for a scoop of ice cream or I ordered a coffee, like you I went to a bakery where they handed me a loaf of bread and there was a tip screen. Yeah. I was like, is and I'm like a people pleaser, so of course I'm immediately like, I don't know, a dollar? Okay. Yeah. And then and then the options are 20%, 25, 30. And you're like, wait, when did it go up? Yeah. Right. Like, what? Um, so it just feels like it's gotten out of hand, but then it also kind of feels like this weird gesture of like patting someone on the head, and here's my spare change. I don't know. I've never really understood it or like why do we why do we do it? Um so I decided to kind of look into the history of it, and uh, so I'm gonna tell you about it. I can't wait. Yeah. I know I have some I have some speculations. Um take it away, boss. Great. So originally it was a master servant or master surf custom in like mid evil Europe where laborers receive small gratuities for exceptional service. So a pat on the head. And then in an incentive to do a good job. Essentially. Like if you know that the option's out there, then you might go above and beyond. Sort of. So then in 16th, 17th century England, guests in private homes were expected to provide veils or tips uh to their host servants. So like if you went and stayed at someone's house and they had servants, you left a personal gift for whoever waited on you. So it wasn't always it wasn't always money. It could just be like food or something. Okay. It's maybe a gift, so that's that's well, they're saying it's like a personal, they're saying tip. Um and then so I I would assume it's money, but like that's if you were staying in the host's house and their servants were waiting on you. Okay. And then it kind of spread in the 17th century, it spread to like coffee houses and inns where you would give a reward for prompt service. So then it was it like encouraged better service. Yeah. Um, and the tipping was originally viewed as a condescending gesture where the wealthy showed superiority by giving money to the lower class. Wealthy Americans traveling to Europe in the 1850s and 1860s adopted the custom to seem aristocratic, though it was initially kind of rejected in the US as un-American and classist. Interesting, because I feel like it's flipped now. Like it's a it's very much expected here. And when I visited Ireland and Scotland, it's location dependent, but most of the time you don't tip, and if you do, it's like 10%. Yeah. But I we went to numerous bars and restaurants that don't even give you a tip screen or an option to tip on your receipt. Well, hopefully that means that they're paying their people well.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Uh, so then tipping proliferated in the US after the Civil War, when restaurant and hospitality industries hired newly emancipated black men and women, but they offered them no wage. And so then they had to rely on patrons uh gratuities to make any money. You're now emancipated, but we're not gonna pay you. Oh yeah. When you like a piece of shit. When you hear the history of what happened post-Civil War, it's shocking. But we're gonna stay focused. We're not gonna go down another rabbit hole. Yeah. So then during the Great Depression, Great Depression, so the 1930s, uh, tipping intensified as a critical albut low wage mechanism for restaurant owners to keep businesses afloat by shifting the labor costs to the customer. So we just never recovered from that? Yeah. So a customer comes in and you know, the prices look reasonable, but they have to then pay the wage of the worker. Um, it was initially unpopular and resisted as un-American. It became a common because employers used it as a way to avoid paying proper wages. And then it just kind of stuck. Yeah. So it's a way for businesses to avoid paying fair wages. I've never worked in like a restaurant. I've never worked in the service industry other than housekeeping. I've worked in like an ice cream shop and then I've worked in the spa industry, but not a bar or or restaurant. Yeah. I looked, I looked into this, and in the US, we have a federal minimum wage, which is do you know how much federal minimum wage is? The federal minimum wage? No, and I'm scared to guess. It's $7.25 an hour. Oh. And do you know the last time it was updated? No. July of 2009.

unknown 15:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

It's almost 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

I know. That's pretty crazy.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

720. Can we do some quick calculations on that? I want to know how much that is a year. Okay. 725. Yeah, hang on. That's less than what I made at Walmart in 2007.

unknown 15:40

By the way.

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Um, and in order to qualify for um Medicaid and food stamps, you just have to make less than that, like depending on the area, less than like 30,000 or like 25. So this is literally a poverty, a poverty wage. Yeah. Cool. Um but if you work in an industry that tips are customary, your your employer can actually pay pay you less. So if you're a tipped worker, your employer can pay you $2.13 per hour federally. Oh, and then the assumption is that tips will make up the difference. Most states that isn't the minimum, but there's a shocking number of states where that is the minimum. Oh my god. How do people how do people keep employees? I mean, I guess maybe they don't now, but well, it's an unskilled job. So you can get people to come in and work for you and they get tips. And sometimes they make decent money with the tips. I don't ever want to go into those situations, you know, being the asshole and not doing what is customary. So, like before I get a massage or before I've gotten a facial or even getting tattoo work done. These are all industries where tips are encouraged. And when I've looked it up, the standard is still 20%. By the way, 20% of the cost of a tattoo is a lot of fucking money. I love my tattoo artists and I'm willing to tip them because they're great. And I realize that maybe that's a bad example. But like it's but I have had multiple tattoo artists tell me that it's not required, nor is it expected, and it is very much appreciated. And it's like, oh, that's cool, but not everyone feels that way. But with someone who is working at a spa, my massage already costs $100. I don't know how much of that you're getting, but I'm assuming that you're not making $2 an hour, but I'm still expected, according to the internet, that the common practice is to tip 20% on something like that as well, which that shit adds up fast. Same with getting your nails done, getting your hair done. And they're making a lot more than $2 an hour. So why am I the asshole for not tipping 20%? Right. Well, and the other thing is where I struggle is if you are an independent contractor, like I know that my hairstylist rents her chair. She's not an employee there. I know that she rents her chair. Well, I think she does. She's running her own business and she sets her rates. Okay. So then if she wants to make that 20% more, why doesn't she just charge me that? Exactly. I would much rather have someone tell me this is what I'm going to charge you than playing this. Am I tipping enough? Am I not tipping enough game? Or I don't know how much the total is actually going to be because you're charging me a price, but how much am I tipping you afterwards? That's not the actual price that I'm paying. I just find it all a bit silly. It's this like silly game that we're playing. Yeah. Of like, if you if you're in charge of your rates, set your rate. And then I if I can decide if I think it's worth that. Yes. And if it's not, then I can go I can go elsewhere. I'm actually gonna ask my hairstylist the next time I talk to her. I'm curious. What are you gonna ask her? How she feels about it in the industry and why it's expected and what the the expectation is and how she sets her rates. Because I know she works at a salon and she rent she rents her space. So I don't know, maybe that's factored into like their rent is really high because they're expected to make up for it in tips or whatever. I don't I don't know. I'm just pulling shit out of my ass, but I'm very curious now. But well, I I mean they're essentially a business owner, right? Where their business is this chair. So the assumption would be that they would charge enough to make a living and then and and pay their bills. And so, like the other day I got my hair done and it was $375. And I was a bit taken aback. It hadn't been that much um before. I was there for three hours, I think.

unknown 20:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

So I'm like, okay, that's over that's over $100 an hour. Yeah, that's over $100 an hour, which is fine because I assume that even if half of that is going to costing people. Yes. Yes. And I'm it is expensive as all hell, but that's like the reason I'm willing to pay it is because I know I can't do nearly as good a job as someone who actually knows how to do it. But it used to be that like or maybe this is just what I thought it was, like going to get my nails done or going to get my hair done, like if I got my nails done, he'd tip like five or ten bucks and then hair like twenty something bucks. But when when it costs $325, that's 60 extra bucks. Yeah. That's a lot. Is that what's expected? Because that's crazy. I I don't know. Like I it I just I find it really frustrating because it's like, well, there's this pressure to do that, but like Yeah, I don't want this person to do like to not give a shit about how. They do my hair in the future because they remember, like, oh, this bitch only tips me ten dollars. Because I I genuinely think about that every time I go to these places, they're like, I'm like, they they have to keep track of like who does what? I always tip 20% for the record, but I'm just like, yeah, it's this like struggle of like, if it's an employee, well, then why isn't this business charging more so that this person can make a consistent wage? Yeah. And isn't reliant on somebody's mood or you know, whatever. And then why is a an independent, you know, contractor or the business owner setting their wages? I think it's like this this um, it's like a leftover thing. It's like we're still doing it when it really could probably just be phased out. Yes. I because like who's gonna say no to a tip? Like if I just did your hair and you're like, oh, I want to give you a tip, like why would I why would I say no to that? Well, this is uh one of the intentional reasons why I never worked in the service industry is because I want to know exactly how much I'm making. I don't want to have to guess if I can make rent this month. Like that, no, that's crazy. So uh which I also find this funny. Like I've worked as a housekeeper multiple times. That was one of my first jobs. Um, my mom was like the manager of a hotel, and I worked as a housekeeper in different hotels, which by the way, fucking awful job. Do you know how much it sucks to clean hotel rooms for people? People are fucking gross. But you know what was never expected? Did you see my condo and I that Airbnb guest? Exactly. Yeah, my I would have been your cleaning crew. Like that shit's so gross. People don't care. And it was always so exciting to get a tip as a housekeeper because it was never expected. People don't tip housekeepers, and that shit is backbusting fucking gross work. And it was like, this would be a nice thing if you did it, but you're paying a shit ton of money to stay in a hotel. Like, you don't have to do it. The housekeepers are required to clean your room anyways, and you're not gonna be here after the fact. But like you're not gonna see them. You don't know if they did a good job or not. Exactly. But the only reason that I know about this is because I was one and I always tip my housekeepers because that shit sucks. But multiple years of being in housekeeping, I would say we maybe got a tip. Let's say if you did 20 rooms in a day, you were lucky to see one tip. Wow. But but would you have rather done the job and got paid more? Yeah. I just think it I'm just using it as an example. Well, and I think the housekeeper thing is kind of weird because the person that cleaned your room before you got there is different than the person who's cleaning it. Could be different than the person who's cleaning it after. So, like But the person cleaning it after is the one cleaning up after me. So I'm saying, thank you for cleaning up whatever it is that I did. I pile my towels, I like I don't leave a fucking disaster. Yeah. So don't think I ever have. We had somebody leave like 50 bucks at the cabin. Oh, nice. And I remember the uh cleaner texted me. She's like, Oh, do they owe you money for something? And I was like, No, I think they probably left that for you. And she was like, Oh my god, like she was so excited and never got a $50 tip. That's that's a crazy amount. I also thought that that was a lot, but I was super excited for I think it was maybe around Christmas time or Thanksgiving, maybe? I don't know. So, well, it was cool. Oh, okay. Um, so then your personal tipping philosophy is 20%. Yes, but I feel like that's probably nowadays that's probably on the low end. Like growing up, it was 10 to 15 percent. Then it was 15 to 20. It's probably more 20 to 25, and I should probably up it. I think minimum, I minimum, I tip 20%. Um, if somebody does a really good job, I will tip more. But sucks. Even if I think somebody did a shitty job. Like at a restaurant, I tip 20%. Unless they, you know, unless it was like egregious. Nobody's been that bad that I can specifically think of. So But I mean, doesn't that doesn't that kind of feel shitty that it's like I'm I still feel expected to give 20% even if my service was awful? Yeah. Well, and then the then the question for me is why am I paying additional optional money when you could adjust your prices so that people are paid fairly? If the price that you're charging isn't enough to pay this person like a decent living wage, then why are you in business? Like, and also then why am I doing business with you? Yeah, I don't like the guessing game or feeling like I'm doing something wrong. And please reach out if you disagree. Happy to hear anyone else's side. I would gladly pay higher prices to not have to tip. Yeah, same. I'm I just want transparency. Yep. I feel like the a restaurant is the only place where I don't feel um as if a tip where I feel an annoyed by tipping. Yeah I think in every other situation, I kind of feel, especially like a coffee shop, like I'm literally I'm here for this took you three minutes or less. Yes. But like at a restaurant, I'm here for a couple hours or you know, and I want your attention and I need you to come check on me, and like you're literally doing everything for me. Yes. It's but but but at a coffee shop, you are providing the same service to everyone. Well, I mean, I guess technically at a restaurant you should be doing that as well. But like that is your job to make the coffee, it it's not to wait on me. I don't know. I've I have a feeling we're gonna get some flack for this. I don't know. I just and again, coffee like a specialty coffee drink, even a non-special tea coffee drink, a regular latte from Starbucks is six plus dollars. And I usually tip a dollar seven dollars for a coffee. I get mad having to do it every time, but when you know, anybody who's been to Starbucks knows if you're using your debit card, I actually use the app. So I guess technically most of the time I don't tip at Starbucks because when you scan the app, it doesn't give you the application. Yeah, it doesn't give you the option. Um, but when you pay with your card at Starbucks, they hand you the machine and they're looking at you while it's like, do you want to? And I'm definitely the person that's like, Yes. Like you're staring at me. Okay. Well, I yeah, it's like I feel bad now. Yeah. Like I want them to be paid well. I don't, it's just this weird, I don't know. Um so a few years ago, I decided that like I was going to set, like, where am I gonna tip? Where am I not gonna tip? Oh, that's a good idea. And um, so then that way you've made the decision, you can decide. Nope. Like what that threshold is. Like, okay, I'm going to tip it at sit-down restaurants, but I'm not gonna tip it like a counter service restaurant where I have to clear my my table. They call my number, like oh, yeah, I didn't even think about that. Yeah. So it's kind of like deciding, and then there's also like maybe you'll tip dollar amounts. Like, okay, well, instead of doing percentages, because like tattoos or like nail salon hair, like nail salon, these get they get very expensive. I'm just gonna do a dollar amount. Like these these percentages are are arbitrary anyway. Like someone made them up as like this is what you should do. And then the other thing is like asking, why isn't this business paying these these people? Like, why aren't they just charging me what they need to make sure that these people are paid well and they get benefits and whatever? How many service industry workers do you know get benefits? Oh, they don't. None. Yeah. So how are these like there are some places I looked it up? There's a couple restaurants like locally that they don't allow tipping and they just charge a a flat service charge. It's a percentage, which again, okay. That's like kind of arbitrary again. Casa Bonita in Colorado does that. Yes, it was a big deal when that happened. They started paying their workers 30 bucks an hour, but they don't allow tipping. I would much rather do that. That was one of the restaurants that that came up for that. There's also Molly Moose, it's an ice cream place in Seattle, and they don't allow tipping. They charge a a service, a service fee now, I think. They were seeing um issues with like certain workers not getting tips. So like the white workers were getting more tips than the black or Hispanic. Yeah. And they were like, This It is the year of our Lord 2026. Are you fucking kidding me? Yep. So I remember when that came out and I was like, wow. All the more reason to get rid of it. Yes. Fucking A. That's I hate people. Yeah. So that was my rant. Um, I hope you feel better now. I do. It feels good to get it all out. And now it is gonna make me think more because I've just because lately with like nail salons and stuff, like I don't I don't mean to be mean, but like I love my nail tech. She doesn't always do the best job. Like sometimes they're sometimes I can tell they're in a hurry and they're just like trying to push people through depending on the day that you go. And it's like okay, but it still costs like the last time I went, it was 90 bucks. And nail, just your nails? Just my nails. And not a pedicure? Nope. And the only design I got was this just a little hand-painted flower. Okay. Well, you're flipping me off. Uh but then where does that the I guess the question then is where does that $90 go? Exactly. Like, I don't know how much of that she gets. Yeah. I just want transparency. Yeah. Like I'm I'm fine with it being a higher price, but I want to know what I'm paying for. Yeah. Wait till I tell you about medical care in the United States and their transparency. Transparency with pricing. Oh, don't get me started. You know how you're like paying $200 for an ibuprofen? Have you ever looked at your your itemized ER bill? Have you ever been to the ER? I have not been to the ER in the US. No. Don't do that. Don't do that. They give you an itemized bill, and it's like, we administered ibuprofen, $200. Gave you an IV, $400. We made you pee in a cup and take a test, $600. You think, oh, pregnancy test? $60. Like I could have bought that for $2 at fucking Walgreens. Yeah. It's um all for you to tell me I'm fine. Yeah. Great. I know. It's um it's very frustrating. We need more transparency. Agreed. So and I think, and I think the people who are working deserve that as well. I agree. I'm sorry if if I pissed anyone in the service industry off. That's not my intention. I think you deserve to be paired paid a fair wage. I just want to I like don't want to go in and guess and feel bad if I get it wrong, but nobody tells me what I'm actually supposed to do. Like I just want I want you to be paid fair and I'll pay you more ahead of time. That'd be great. Yeah. And then let me make that decision. Like, don't make me make a decision based on my mood. Right. Like because that sucks for you too. And I I get it. I haven't worked in the service industry like that, so I know my opinion is biased in a different way. But please. Well, but but I think what we're both trying to say is that people would probably be better off if they were making $30 an hour consistently. Yes. As opposed to being on somebody else's roller coaster. Yes. Agreed. But that was a great topic. That's yeah, that's all I've got for you today. Okay. So thank you. That was good. You're welcome. Well, to all of you out there in the service industry and otherwise, you know, remember that Mildly Thriving is thriving enough. Sorry, I didn't realize that you were looking at me and expecting me to say it and I panicked. Oh, should we do it again? Oh no. I don't know, you're the one that said it. Okay, bye Marionette. Bye, Kimberly.